The Wicker Man - Spoilers
Jan. 18th, 2004 09:55 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
muck_a_luckWatched The Wicker Man with The Husband last night.
First, considering how this movie is always described, I expected it to be kinda dumb soft porn with a big fire at the end.
Actually, it was very well done. Good acting, decent script, eroticism just explicit enough but carefully used. And everybody in the town sang very well (was wondering if there is a soundtrack - should investigate).
Anyway, I would definitely recommend it.
Lead to a long, philosophical discussion with The Husband on various subjects. Up 'til after 2am.
All the "free sex" set me off wondering what I have often wondered - why are humans not more matrilinial? It makes much more sense than trying to trace heredity back through the male. Best theory is that it has to do with the apparently natural (or at least nearly unavoidable) patriarchical human state. Even though it seems to me to make more sense even in a patriarchical society for heredity to go down through your sister's children, once you are in charge, what if you don't have any sisters? You've got to get useful offspring somehow to inherit your power. Plus, once you've got all the power, maybe it's too difficult psychologically not to have all the power, and make your own offspring yourself rather than relying on your sister to pass on your genes. (Though that argument is weak, as really the child production power never comes back to the man, just transfers from one female, his sister, to another female, his mate, and his control over his mate is so unsure compared to control over the sister). And then, of course, there is the argument that men just aren't logical (even biologically).
Then, Husband asked if I thought Lord Summerisle was evil. Much discussion about whether there can be absolute evil, or whether evil depends on motivation and cultural context. We agreed that luring the policeman to Summerisle to be a human sacrifice was evil, both in an absolute sense and in the context of the religion as presented. Lord Summerisle was the correct sacrifice. And even if they weren't going to sacrifice him, a legitimate sacrifice should have come from within their own community. Using the policeman, after the elaborate scheme to bring him to their ceremony, was wrong even within their own context, and murder no matter how you slice it. However, much continuing discussion about whether human sacrifice could just be flatly condemned as evil on a higher moral level.
Good movie. And an example of why I married The Husband in the first place. We can talk for hours about stuff. (So eloquent.)
First, considering how this movie is always described, I expected it to be kinda dumb soft porn with a big fire at the end.
Actually, it was very well done. Good acting, decent script, eroticism just explicit enough but carefully used. And everybody in the town sang very well (was wondering if there is a soundtrack - should investigate).
Anyway, I would definitely recommend it.
Lead to a long, philosophical discussion with The Husband on various subjects. Up 'til after 2am.
All the "free sex" set me off wondering what I have often wondered - why are humans not more matrilinial? It makes much more sense than trying to trace heredity back through the male. Best theory is that it has to do with the apparently natural (or at least nearly unavoidable) patriarchical human state. Even though it seems to me to make more sense even in a patriarchical society for heredity to go down through your sister's children, once you are in charge, what if you don't have any sisters? You've got to get useful offspring somehow to inherit your power. Plus, once you've got all the power, maybe it's too difficult psychologically not to have all the power, and make your own offspring yourself rather than relying on your sister to pass on your genes. (Though that argument is weak, as really the child production power never comes back to the man, just transfers from one female, his sister, to another female, his mate, and his control over his mate is so unsure compared to control over the sister). And then, of course, there is the argument that men just aren't logical (even biologically).
Then, Husband asked if I thought Lord Summerisle was evil. Much discussion about whether there can be absolute evil, or whether evil depends on motivation and cultural context. We agreed that luring the policeman to Summerisle to be a human sacrifice was evil, both in an absolute sense and in the context of the religion as presented. Lord Summerisle was the correct sacrifice. And even if they weren't going to sacrifice him, a legitimate sacrifice should have come from within their own community. Using the policeman, after the elaborate scheme to bring him to their ceremony, was wrong even within their own context, and murder no matter how you slice it. However, much continuing discussion about whether human sacrifice could just be flatly condemned as evil on a higher moral level.
Good movie. And an example of why I married The Husband in the first place. We can talk for hours about stuff. (So eloquent.)
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no subject
Date: 2004-01-19 01:06 am (UTC)Take a US federal holiday
Date: 2004-01-19 03:56 am (UTC)Take off for Martin Luther King, Jr. Day! :)
Good Idea!
Date: 2004-01-19 01:03 pm (UTC)Bummer!! And Paul not working today, cos he's still only on 3 days a week for the moment.
Also, just left post at Miellyn's journal that will make my Mom cry, (not really intentionally, just a sappy post) and therefore the concept of LiveJournal will go out of the window, and she'll phone me instead of posting a reply ... any minute ... now ...
Do want to do long reply to Wicker Man post, and catch up with other stuff, but, due to complete lack of organisational skills (hence Paul), have to go do some work now, before SM gets back!
Catch you later *hugs*
Re: Good Idea!
Date: 2004-01-19 01:10 pm (UTC)The Small Boy is at day care rather than school. He was v. disappointed not to get a day off at home.
Don't mind, though, as The Boss gave me days off at Christmas and New Year rather than asking me to take vacation time.
Very much looking forward to your Wicker Man post. But as you have been working diligently today, I have been too. So I suppose that is a good thing. No LJ distractions.
Sorry you are still toiling away at 9pm. I'm negotiating dinner out with The Husband, and going home in minutes.
Toodles for now!
Love!
CK
Wicker Man - Soon!
Date: 2004-01-20 10:31 pm (UTC)Still working on the Wicker Man reply. It sort of went off on a tanget, and is still growing!
Re: Wicker Man - Soon!
Date: 2004-01-21 03:34 am (UTC)Still working on the Wicker Man reply.
So you say... ;)
no subject
Date: 2004-01-21 09:06 pm (UTC)And I am so!! It's sort of become a critique of Christianity versus ancient Goddess based religions, and What Did the Romans Ever Do For Us type thing, and I wanted to do a little research! I kid you not!!
What Did the Romans Ever Do For Us
Date: 2004-01-21 09:11 pm (UTC)Makes me think of Life of Brian.
Re: What Did the Romans Ever Do For Us
Date: 2004-01-23 01:42 pm (UTC)Also, you may have noticed a couple of changes to my journals. Still not happy with colours for Uisgich, but will sort that out later.
So, I'm going to use Neo for my fic, and let you see what you think.
Gotta go, cause I'm setting up laptops this afternoon for SM's course tomorrow. Will catch up later!
And I forgot to post about the Viggo and Brad and cowboy stuff!! Bad, bad!! Will do that later too!!
Hugs
L
no subject
Date: 2004-01-25 05:57 pm (UTC)Celtic pre-Christian societies were more matrilinial, which, as you say, makes a lot more sense. The coming of Christianity as an established religion was the start of gave the power base to men, where prior to that, in many ancient societies, the female, the creator, was seen as divine, and therefore powerful. Older religions also acknowledge the union between male and female, dark and light. So you have a goddess working in harmony with a god, moving through the days and the seasons.
When the first Christians arrived in what is now Great Britain, they worshiped alongside the druids, acknowledging the freedom to worship the divine in whatever form it took, god or goddess. It wasn't until the Romans became Christianiased, and made it the official religion of the empire that older religions and ways of life were swept away.
Which brings me to the movie.
a legitimate sacrifice should have come from within their own community
There are similarities between the idea of the king stag being the leader of the people, and as the stag ages, a new, younger stag rises to challenge him. If the harvest failed, it was the king stag who would have been sacrificed. Which would have meant Lord Summerisle being sacrificed himself, which would have certainly (in their eyes) have guaranteed a rich harvest the following year.
I think the movie makers ran with the idea of a "virgin sacrifice" instead. A virgin who came willingly to the point of sacrifice. When actually, the thought of using an outsider for this purpose would not have been considered.
whether evil depends on motivation and cultural context
I don't think you can say that Lord Summerisle was inherently evil, as he had the best interests of his community at heart, but I agree that the act of using the policeman was murder. Again, this goes back to the point that Lord Summerisle would have been the correct sacrifice, and his community would have known that well.
And I just loved the movie in general, because, as you said, it isn't what you would expect it to be. It is a well put together film. And I did think I had heard that Christopher Lee is getting together with the director to make another movie based out on the west coast (of Scotland!), and that Sean Astin (not Bean, sob!) was going to be involved too!
And the Summer Isles do exist, just not quite as they are in the movie. There is no large country house, they are just a collection of very beautiful small islands off the west coast, just south of a place called Achiltibue. Although we have never visited (I don't think there is a regular ferry service, and there are no roads, just the occasional rough track), we have sat and watched the sunset over the islands quite a few times, and it is a truly beautiful sight.
We can talk for hours about stuff
That's one of the things I like about SM too!
no subject
Date: 2004-01-28 03:52 am (UTC)The coming of Christianity as an established religion was the start of gave the power base to men
Yeah, yeah. But it still doesen't really answer my question about *why* societies don't go with matrilinarity. I understand the loss of matriarchy and reverence for the female. Overall, as much as the feminist in me hates to admit it, men are bigger and stronger and it makes sense that the stronger take from the weaker. I don't have to like it, and I can use every tool of a modern, industrial society to change it, but I can still acknowledge that when everybody's whacking each other over the head with rocks, guys naturally have the advantage. So patriarchy and loss of respect for the female divine seems like something that could be expected.
What I don't get is why it's in the best interest of men to rely on the faithfulness of a mate for genetic offspring, rather than to go with the sure thing of a sister's children. The Husband pointed out that your own children are more your own genetic code than a sibling's children are. So your genes are passed on more reliably through your own children. Excellent point. Then there was my thought about lack of sisters. But mostly, I think sponsoring his neices and nephews makes more sense, for the man, than trying to ensure that his wife is carrying his own children. In some ways, it gives more power to the man, because his sister can't cuckold him...
I think the movie makers ran with the idea of a "virgin sacrifice" instead
Do you think they did it deliberately, because they knew it would be more horrifying to bring in an outsider, or just out of ignorance? The Husband, with a bachelor's and master's in history and who knows what "pagan" literature under his belt, kept critiquing the thing on the basis of faithfulness to pagan traditions. I told him that as good as it is, it's just a horror flick. Can't be too, too critical. Gotta suspend the old disbelief...
I had heard that Christopher Lee is getting together with the director to make another movie based out on the west coast (of Scotland!), and that Sean Astin (not Bean, sob!) was going to be involved too!
According to IMDB, this is still in the works. I had heard about it ages ago, so it has been "in the works" a long time. At least two years. But an entry on IMDB give some hope...